Björn in Weltwoche

Samia Jalal
 

« This is where intellect comes into play »

From Serge Simonart (Translation for ABBAMAIL by Samia Jalal)

Possibly one can imagine life without Jeans or concrete, but without ABBA? The Swedish pop group even moved Hindus and Punks. And it continues to do so 30 years after their last hit more than ever. How do you do this, Björn Ulvaeus?

Anyone who missed ABBA back then has no other chance, or maybe yes? A couple of years ago you have declined the offer, Mr. Ulvaeus, of one billion dollars to reunite. Or was that just a myth?

B: No, it was a serious offer, which we seriously considered. It would have been a tour with 100 concerts. It was a very tempting offer, I don't want to pretend it wasn't. We are rich, but not that rich. And with so much money, one could do a lot of good. I said, we'll consider doing it for the double sum, which was a joke of course. We said no before that to offers of milestone quality. Live Aid, the Millennium, 30 years of Abba etc. To be honest, we hated going on tour back then and at our age it would be big shock for us - and for our fans. Agnetha and Anni-Frid are grandmothers. Are people really that keen to see 60 year old ABBA musicians with all kind of new wrinkles and crinkles [not Frida, darling!! - Samia's comment] I don't know..

Of course! The anticipation brought about by the Musical «Mamma Mia» is fantastic. People are like children who can't wait for a new box of sweets to be opened.

B: The tight silver costumes won't be part of it anyway. One was so tight, I couldn't even sit in it.

I have a good argument for a reunion: In the past 30 years a lot has changed sound-technically speaking. ABBA went in the middle ages on tour, so to speak, so it was a stressful affair. Today it would be for you an efficiently organised trip with 6 star hotels.

B: Believe me, we thoroughly considered every argument you can think of. It's true that the sound would be better. At the time we often didn't hear ourselves. I used to let them play bass and drums on the monitors so that I could at least stay in rhythm. But even that wasn't always possible. Particularly Agnetha has no interest whatsoever. She is still traumatised from the time our plane almost crashed. Also you shouldn't forget that our singers were young mothers at the time and had sourly missed their children while on tour. Also we still feel a lot of negatives vibes: mass hysteria, stalkers, boredom, nervousness, fear of failure, fights. I remember a performance in the rain, in Australia, during a storm: we were almost killed by an electric shock. No, never again! Let's talk about something else - I'm starting to feel stress symptoms in my body.

An unofficial reunion did take place however. You sang together at the birthday party of a friend.

B: Yes, but that was something private. Görel Hanser's 50th birthday. She was our right hand for a long time, a charming woman. We sang a Swedish folk song for her, not an ABBA song. We practised a bit beforehand - in the roomy bathroom for the disabled: Benny said jokingly: just look at us: we turn down an offer for 1 billion dollars and instead we practise in a bathroom [Samia wonders: wasn't Görel's 50th birthday before the offer??]

When you and Benny were called on stage by Bono in 1992 in Stockholm and 50000 U2-fans sang «Dancing Queen» didn't you itch to get back on stage? They weren't even your fans.

B:That was fantastic, of course. An unbelievable surge of adrenalin. This was the moment where changes in the music industry became really noticeable: the technical possibilities, satellite connections, revolving stages, a perfect sound. But the euphoria evaporated soon afterwards. I am still amazed at how many rockers seem to be ABBA fans: U2, Kurt Cobain, the Foo Fighters, Elvis Costello, Oasis, Led Zeppelin, R.E.M., even Johnny Rotten from the Sex Pistols, and this although Punk was the embodiment of the Anti-Pop movement.

I was asked not to talk about your marriage problems with Agnetha and not about your private life. This is difficult because on what is «Mamma Mia» based on? A wedding! and also the film «Muriel's Wedding» is full of Abba songs.

B: I know, don't think that this irony has escaped us. Especially considering that the first marriages of all ABBA members failed. It is pretty strange, after we all went our separate ways to be confronted daily by the child we had together 30 years ago. I have 4 children, two by each wife and my oldest daughter, Linda, about whom I wrote «Slipping Through My Fingers» when she was 6 years old and went to school for the first time, away from daddy, out into the bad, unguarded world - Linda is 33 today, but the child "ABBA" outshines every other aspect of our life . I'm happy by the way that today a wedding is the centre of the Musical: Originally all songs were to be sung by animals. Really! A giraffe that sings «S.O.S.»? I couldn't understand that. At first Benny and I didn't like the idea of a musical based on our songs anyway, but then I saw the Musical «Grease» with my wife and kids and I was able to picture it.

ABBA never split up officially but in 1981 you took a break that has now lasted a quarter of a century. When and why did the burden become too big?

B: Everything became too much. Mass hysteria, pressure, paparazzi. Worst of all was when Agnetha and I got divorced and soon after that Benny and Anni-Frid got married. For Agnetha and myself it was a bitter time. At the same time Benny and Anni-Frid were very happy. When you have such diverse moods like bitterness and euphoria at the same time and this within one group, where its members are together almost all the time, then you get tension. A lot say that one can trace the ups and downs of my marriage in my song texts «Where are those happy days... what happened to our love», in «S.O.S.», but it is not as simple as that. Sometimes there are some references. «The Name of the Game» talks about a therapist, where Agnetha and I went to save our marriage. I remember that the other 3 members where deeply touched when I showed them the text to «The Winner Takes It All»: «Tell me, does she kiss like I used to kiss you... does it feel the same, when she calls your name?» Some tears were shed. Really. And then this stalker... Agnetha couldn't put up with that, it seemed to her as though people were forcing her to live the life of a recluse. This was then extremely hyped up. Agnetha is not so eccentric as people say. [Samia's comment: is he saying that she is a little eccentric ;-)?] Also Benny and I have reached the point where we think we said it all. We don't want to repeat ourselves.

I want to mention another "hot potato". If there is something from ABBA that would make good material for a theatre play or a musical, then the life of Anni-Frid alias Frida - don't you agree?

B: You're right. Of all four of us, she had the most dramatic life. When I heard that the Musical «Mamma Mia» is about a young girl who doesn't know who her real father is I called Anni-Frid to reassure her. You will understand, that I don't want to say much about the issue and I can't speak for Anni-Frid. But you're right: her life is the classic from rags to riches story. First it appeared that she was an orphan, then it turned out that she was a product of the Lebensborn-Programme. (When the Nazis occupied Sweden, they tried to "breed" perfect Arians or at least better Swedes with select Swedish women and Nazi officers) Her German father was found and an awkward family reunion took place. Then Anni-Frid's daughter died in a car crash. Then she married a German prince and he died of cancer. From orphan to princess. I never thought of it like that, but now that you mention it I can just picture the scenes and the cliff-hangers. Maybe this play will appear 100 years from when all those involved are no longer there. But now it would be too delicate.

Ironically Anni-Frid, the «Arian» of the group was not the blond one but the red head.

B: Yes, yes - But what do you think of the «Mamma Mia»?

I think it is good entertainment, especially for women and gay men. I have a problem though with the translation and the adaptation. The new arrangements show how perfect the original versions of your songs were.

B: To that I'd like to add that the musical conductor borrowed all our original tapes and more or less used the original arrangements. Naturally some changes could not be avoided. You can't have a grand piano in the orchestra pit, so you have to make do with a synthesizer. Incidentally: you don't hear that [synths] in our sound because Benny and I were very subtle but we were the first to work with synthesizers. And as for the translations are concerned, I have heard some of our songs in Hindi [Oh! Björn knows Thelma and Louise .eh.. Salma and Sabina !! Samia's comment] and Japanese and they sounded good.

This may sound very pretentious, but I must say it: sometimes I think I'm too intelligent to write good songs. I could never use a word like «Chiquitita», though I have to admit, it works!

B: I know what you mean. We are of course stupid Swedes, but we know what we're doing. I always thought that instinct is just as important as intelligence. You have to do what the songs ask of you. The «Aha» in the refrain of «Knowing Me, Knowing You» is only there because we needed a word of two syllables. Without the «Aha» something would be missing and a real word would have distracted from the closed statement of «Knowing me, knowing you». I think the melody is the most essential part of the song. We always began with the melody. We hummed or sang nonsense words, then I took the recordings of the music home with me and then I looked for a theme, an idea for a story, for words that fit the melody. If I remember correctly, we never thought: «Dancing Queen... is a song about a Party-Girl. Now all we need is a good melody and there we have it. It was always the other way round. In the case of «Take a Chance On Me» the staccato of the monosyllabic words fitted perfectly into the rhythm of the already composed music. But what is your problem with «Chiquitita»?

Eh... I find it sounds simply stupid. I also have to think of bananas.

B: The bananas are called Chiquita. «Chiquitita» means «sweet little girl». The boy in the story sees himself as a protector, that's why he needs a pet name. When «Chiquitita» became a hit in all of South America, I knew that we had a connection to the people. Our music knew no national borders. I don't think that for a group from Chile it would have been easy to have a hit in Sweden as easily as we did. The working title was called by the way «In the Arms of Rosalita».

I find that fascinating. With that title the song would have never made it to number one! It just shows that things can sometimes never be too simple.

B: The working title for «Dancing Queen» was «Boogaloo». At that point the song sounded like something out of a funky jamming session. Our starting point was the pop kind of soul of black American musicians of the time like George McCrae, who had a hit with «Rock Your Baby». The jamming was a bit slower than in the final version and we didn't manage to bring it to a good end. With «Dancing Queen» we worked on it till the final mix. The final version was 10 times denser and more concise that the first one. This is often very difficult: to reach the final version without it sounding rushed. I remember we had numerous versions of the «The Winner Takes It All» including three final mixes of which each one sounded good to us. But one was too slow, one was too stiff. It's quite mysterious. It makes me angry when people talk about ABBA as a hit factory, as if we worked on a production line. We worked very hard! And our songs were never so simple as they seem.

I ask myself again and again, what the words «Mamma Mia» in the song Mamma Mia mean. For the song doesn't play in Italy and it is not about a mother. But when you take the words away, the song loses its strength.

B: You're right. Here again the rhythm was decisive. When you take «da-da dada», the hook, that is the phrase that has the most potential to be the catchy tune, then that's where you have to place the title: «Mamma Mia». This is where intellect comes into play: when one wants to create an effective / striking structure for the song. Benny and I had often the feeling that we had the perfect melody for a song, but when the women sang it in the studio, it didn't work. Then it was a case of starting all over again.

You wrote together with Benny Andersson 25 Number one hits. Imagine if he didn't exist, with whom would you have liked to have worked?

B: First name I can think of is of course Brian Wilson but that's not realistic because he's a loner, not one who works in a team. Randy Newman? No, he doesn't need me, he writes himself brilliant song texts.

ABBA Songs give off such innocence, that one almost cannot find today. Did this charming naivety have anything to do with your personalities? Was it the Zeitgeist or did you tell yourself, feelings sell?

B: My first reaction is to say: Zeitgeist. But it wasn't that innocent really at the time at all. We weren't two villagers who made music in the middle ages in a far away forest. In Vietnam there was war, Watergate was just disclosed, there were terrors, nuclear energy etc.

I come from Brussels, I land in Stockholm, and at once it becomes clear: less stress, more light, more air, more at ease and friendly Swedes. The quality of life and the attitude seem to be very different.

 B: Maybe. In retrospect I think that it did help, that were blue-eyed, naive, stupid Swedes. We worked on our own playground, our own territory at our own pace. One works differently in stressful surroundings like New York, where the pressure to make it is felt every hour of the day.

You wrote «Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! (A Man After Midnight)». This is a «booty call» avant la lettre, when no one knew about Aids yet. 10 years later a song about a woman spending a one night stand with a stranger would have raised a few eyebrows.

B: Yes, I agree, especially if you take into consideration that in the charts things are more prudish than the movies or modern art. I have to admit that «Gimme! Gimme!» [sic.] is the only song where I ask myself: for God's sake, what were you thinking, writing a song about a lonely sex hungry woman! I must have developed at the time a lot of empathy for I was never a drag queen. That's what I like about the «Mamma Mia»-Show: There an older woman sings this song to a younger man who flirted with her. [wasn't that "Does your mother know?" - Samia's question] The roles are reversed. By the way what is a «booty call»?

«Booty call» is an Afro-American street-talk and is mentioned in a song by Destiny's Child. It means that a modern woman, feeling a sudden appetite for sex would call a willing friend who would satisfy her as she likes but who can't stay overnight.

B: Oh, and that's is supposed to be progress or what? And what does that have to do with «Gimme!» [sic]?

You were the first to make that theme as a song. The song by Destiny's Child is a kind of a new extraction of your song.

 B: I always knew I was ahead of my time.

One song where I often asked myself what it means is «Does Your Mother Know?», the story of an adult male, who has a relationship with a young girl. Was Nabokov's novel «Lolita» the inspiration to that like the Police-Song «Don't Stand So Close To Me»?

B: Sting, that would be an interesting partner to write songs with! One could say that after us he took over the top places in the charts: when we started to slowly disappear from the limelight, the career of Police began. No, «Does Your Mother Know?» has nothing to do with «Lolita» or with Groupies.

«Money, Money, Money» was the call of a woman, who was after money, an opportunistic materialist, who sings «If I got me a wealthy man, I wouldn't have to work at all». Aren't you afraid that men who are only interested in money might have a go at your daughters?

B: Sure, that gives me a lot of worry. And I think or rather hope that I have developed a sixth sense for sneaking, good-for-nothing men. At any rate, since you are here my inner detector hasn't stopped beeping like mad....

What do you think of Madonna's single «Hung Up», which sampled an ABBA song?

B: I find it astonishing that a young American can amalgamate one of his ideas with something already existing, and that the combination results in perfect pop music.. But judging by your facial expression, you can't stand the song. Why?

I find it to simple and banal. But I understand of course that someone who makes money out of this project, without doing anything for it, will see things differently.

B: We didn't do it because of the money. We were aware of course that the song won't just sell three record, when the name Madonna is written on it. We rejected a lot of requests for sampling before. Madonna's producer convinced us. By the way, we will be earning more from «Mamma Mia» than from ABBA. This is very strange but pleasant. I can still remember when I thought for the first time: «our music will live on, even if we never touched an instrument again.» That was when I was standing in a lift and heard a Muzak-version from «I Have a Dream». This caused a strange mixture of feeling in me. Here was our music and at the same time it wasn't. It sounded appalling but the knowledge that we make money out of it lessened my irritation. Since then there has never been a day on which I have mixed feelings about the legacy of ABBA.

What is the strangest echo of your music that you have ever heard?

B: That must be the scene from the film «The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert». [Here note of explanation from the author of the article about the ABBA turd scene.] What was the screenplay writer thinking? And then a friend once told me that he was on a safari in Kenya, was enjoying the quietness of the nature there until it was disturbed by parts of «Dancing Queen» coming out of a Jeep driving past. ABBA in the jungle! Or the cover version of «Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!» by ..what are they called. Rock musicians in leather, where one of their acts was a woman doing a reverse striptease: at first she is naked and at the end she's fully dressed. Very bizarre.

What attracts your attention when you look at today's charts?

B: That today more artists follow the «My Way» principle, i.e., like Frank Sinatra, letting other people write their songs. What I notice is how little of the song writers are real work horses. They are easily pleased, they are satisfied with one good idea. We used to first be satisfied when everything was good, when each damn note was in the right place! Our best songs have an irresistible melody, a good hook or a riff, a catchy title, a text you can sing along to, a familiar or interesting theme, a perfect introduction and a suitable finale. If one leaves out one of those elements, one still has a good song but not a classic one.

There is no escape from the ABBA legacy. When was the last time that you stopped thinking, at least for a short moment: «I am Björn from ABBA»?

B: Oh, there are always such moments, even now during our conversation.